The Conscription

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The Conscription

Post by Guest on Wed Apr 27, 2016 5:56 pm

Greetings Pantheon, Kyro here, today I thought that we'd have a discussion over whether or not the Conscription is Just. I will be briefly be going over my opinion as to why the Conscription isn't just. You may feel free to add in your own opinions.

Individual Rights

1) People as a Means, not an end

In a civilized society, we as humans must live together peacefully. One key issue is that we should move to create a Kingdom of Ends. The Kingdom of Ends is where people are treated as an end of themselves, not a means [1]. This is important as it is part of the soceity that we should strive to as it maximizes human equality and the ability to live together peacefully. The Kingdom shows that many people can live together under common just laws as they are able to live as ends instead of means. At the End, they are able to live together as citizens in this Kingdom to be treated as ends and this will lead to an equality through individiual rights [2]. The Draft violates the Kingdom of Ends as it forces rational beings into the military to serve their country. These individuals are being forced against their will to preform a task that does not treat them as an end. This makes the draft an unjust law as it violates the rights of Rational Being and destroys the ability to fully establish the Kingdom of Ends.

2) Objectivism, the Right to Life.

Dangers that occur with the draft is that they attempt Altruism where they abridge the rights of the individual for the gains as a whole [3]. One thing that is over looked is that without the individual, there can be no society. Each man has the right to life, where they have control of their own destiny. The Right to Life must be acknowledge as it spurs people to do and create an innovative world where they could even make it a safer one. The draft, on the other hand, abridges this right as the State takes control of the individual for the draft and forces them to preform whatever task that the government so chooses. By enforcing these people to do as the government wants enforces Involuntary Servantude upon all individuals where they have to serve in the military against their own will [4]. These individuals face death or potential injury where they would not have if they had the right to control their own lives. This creates an image that the individual is disposable making it a harmful world.


Draft harms Soceity


1. Harms the military

When we look at the generally military we must observe how it is affected by such an investment. Instituations as well as Top military officers have noted that when comparing these two groups, that a force of voluntiers is way better than those who have been drafted, forced against their will, into the military. "The all-volunteer force has had immense success in drawing highly motivated individuals... America's military leadership is adamantly opposed to instituting a new draft. The generals and admirals argue that a draft would weaken mission capability and create enormous structural and management problems. Morale and force cohesiveness would suffer intensely, particularly with a two-caste military. [5]" This kind of system in the military shows that there is a strong opposition amongst military leadership that this will create this system in the military that harms those who were drafted into it, which would later alienate those who had been in the military previously.

2. Harms the Family Unit

This is continously pulled against as a key example occured in World War 1, where 17 million people who were registered for the draft were able to pass tests for the draft, but 8 million filled for exempt status [6], showing that nearly the majority strongly pushing against it in anyway they can. Several draft riots have occured throughout US history due to the harm of the family. Many of these riots have turned bloody as generally the lower class and minorities tend to be sent off to the military in the draft while the rich are exlcuded [7]. The issue occurs when the women in the family have their husbands have to leave to go into the military and have an increased chance of death severally harms themselves, but also their household income. From the Civil War to the Vietnam War, the widows have been put into poverty. To make things worse. The draft has been shown to increases crime rate by 4% [8].

Sources
1. (http://philosophy.fas.nyu.edu/docs/IO/1881/scanlon.pdf)
2. Stephen Palmquist "'The Kingdom of God is at Hand!' (Did Kant really say that?)", History of Philosophy Quarterly 11:4 (October 1994), pp.421-437.
3. ( https://www.theobjectivestandard.com/what-is-objectivism/
4. Ron Paul (2009), On Reinstating the Draft, house.gov,
5. ( http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2006/11/no-justification-for-a-military-draft)
6. Groupman, Alan. "Should the United States Reinstate the Draft?" Retired Officer Magazine July 2000: n. pag. Web. 28 Mar. 2016.
7. (http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/317749.html)
8. (https://www.povertyactionlab.org/evaluation/military-conscription-and-crime-argentina)

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Re: The Conscription

Post by Yui on Wed Apr 27, 2016 6:30 pm

I actually agree with your reasoning on this (I've also studied philosophy, albeit a little while ago so it is ringing bells somewhere).

People do it because they are told to but I do also think people believe it is necessary, or the right thing to do. And that is sad and find it sad that it comes to that at all, really.

Your point about humans being disposable resonated with me. So, would you say countries should only ever have military where the members had signed up on their own and there, created there own destiny? And if one does believe in a God or something, where's 'God' in that destiny. Maybe I'm getting into something else there.

I'd certainly agree that it harms the military, there's not many records where a lesser-trained group won the battle...

And that's just sad. It reminded me of a book I read, called 'Return of the Soldier'. It was a novel but just so 'real'.

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Re: The Conscription

Post by Guest on Wed Apr 27, 2016 7:06 pm

Yui wrote:I actually agree with your reasoning on this (I've also studied philosophy, albeit a little while ago so it is ringing bells somewhere).

People do it because they are told to but I do also think people believe it is necessary, or the right thing to do. And that is sad and find it sad that it comes to that at all, really.

Your point about humans being disposable resonated with me. So, would you say countries should only ever have military where the members had signed up on their own and there, created there own destiny? And if one does believe in a God or something, where's 'God' in that destiny. Maybe I'm getting into something else there.  

I'd certainly agree that it harms the military, there's not many records where a lesser-trained group won the battle...

And that's just sad. It reminded me of a book I read, called 'Return of the Soldier'. It was a novel but just so 'real'.

Generally, it should be volunetarially. There should be no reason why a nation should force people against their will into the military. Even if they did believe in God, I do for instance, they could easily see that since God gave them free will, then they have control over their own life and will do what they think is moral in the eyes of God.

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Re: The Conscription

Post by Yui on Wed Apr 27, 2016 7:52 pm

I certainly agree with doing what one thinks is moral and it's a pretty horrible thought that so many have acted upon doing something they thought was morally wrong because someone else told them to do it. It kind of makes me think of a hymn that's sung on Remembrance Day that has the lyrics 'Proudly you gathered, rank on rank, to war, as who had heard God's message from afar'. If one thinks that it is God's call and the right thing to do, it might not have been what had originally planned but they will go... And what about those instructing them to do so... Where does it stop?

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Re: The Conscription

Post by Guest on Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:42 pm

Yui wrote:I certainly agree with doing what one thinks is moral and it's a pretty horrible thought that so many have acted upon doing something they thought was morally wrong because someone else told them to do it. It kind of makes me think of a hymn that's sung on Remembrance Day that has the lyrics 'Proudly you gathered, rank on rank, to war, as who had heard God's message from afar'. If one thinks that it is God's call and the right thing to do, it might not have been what had originally planned but they will go... And what about those instructing them to do so... Where does it stop?

Quite a good point, but this surrounds forcing someone against their will or to die in the name of the state. Granted that someone could replace it with God or other things, but God, for this portion, is not forcing people to join the military. For many years, Christians abstained from military service until St. Thomas published his Suma which he came out with the Just War theory.

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Re: The Conscription

Post by Yui on Thu Apr 28, 2016 8:13 pm

It did kind of make me think of the Just War Theory but maybe that's something for another day.

But does one owe their country/should they protect it, if that place is threatened?

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not to mention

Post by Guest on Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:00 pm

conscription treats humans as chattel, to be traded (as slaves)

lannan13 wrote:Greetings Pantheon, Kyro here, today I thought that we'd have a discussion over whether or not the Conscription is Just. I will be briefly be going over my opinion as to why the Conscription isn't just. You may feel free to add in your own opinions.

Individual Rights

1) People as a Means, not an end

In a civilized society, we as humans must live together peacefully. One key issue is that we should move to create a Kingdom of Ends. The Kingdom of Ends is where people are treated as an end of themselves, not a means [1]. This is important as it is part of the soceity that we should strive to as it maximizes human equality and the ability to live together peacefully. The Kingdom shows that many people can live together under common just laws as they are able to live as ends instead of means. At the End, they are able to live together as citizens in this Kingdom to be treated as ends and this will lead to an equality through individiual rights [2]. The Draft violates the Kingdom of Ends as it forces rational beings into the military to serve their country. These individuals are being forced against their will to preform a task that does not treat them as an end. This makes the draft an unjust law as it violates the rights of Rational Being and destroys the ability to fully establish the Kingdom of Ends.

2) Objectivism, the Right to Life.

Dangers that occur with the draft is that they attempt Altruism where they abridge the rights of the individual for the gains as a whole [3]. One thing that is over looked is that without the individual, there can be no society. Each man has the right to life, where they have control of their own destiny. The Right to Life must be acknowledge as it spurs people to do and create an innovative world where they could even make it a safer one. The draft, on the other hand, abridges this right as the State takes control of the individual for the draft and forces them to preform whatever task that the government so chooses. By enforcing these people to do as the government wants enforces Involuntary Servantude upon all individuals where they have to serve in the military against their own will [4]. These individuals face death or potential injury where they would not have if they had the right to control their own lives. This creates an image that the individual is disposable making it a harmful world.


Draft harms Soceity


1. Harms the military

When we look at the generally military we must observe how it is affected by such an investment. Instituations as well as Top military officers have noted that when comparing these two groups, that a force of voluntiers is way better than those who have been drafted, forced against their will, into the military. "The all-volunteer force has had immense success in drawing highly motivated individuals... America's military leadership is adamantly opposed to instituting a new draft. The generals and admirals argue that a draft would weaken mission capability and create enormous structural and management problems. Morale and force cohesiveness would suffer intensely, particularly with a two-caste military. [5]" This kind of system in the military shows that there is a strong opposition amongst military leadership that this will create this system in the military that harms those who were drafted into it, which would later alienate those who had been in the military previously.

2. Harms the Family Unit

This is continously pulled against as a key example occured in World War 1, where 17 million people who were registered for the draft were able to pass tests for the draft, but 8 million filled for exempt status [6], showing that nearly the majority strongly pushing against it in anyway they can. Several draft riots have occured throughout US history due to the harm of the family. Many of these riots have turned bloody as generally the lower class and minorities tend to be sent off to the military in the draft while the rich are exlcuded [7]. The issue occurs when the women in the family have their husbands have to leave to go into the military and have an increased chance of death severally harms themselves, but also their household income. From the Civil War to the Vietnam War, the widows have been put into poverty. To make things worse. The draft has been shown to increases crime rate by 4% [8].

Sources
1. (http://philosophy.fas.nyu.edu/docs/IO/1881/scanlon.pdf)
2. Stephen Palmquist "'The Kingdom of God is at Hand!' (Did Kant really say that?)", History of Philosophy Quarterly 11:4 (October 1994), pp.421-437.
3. ( https://www.theobjectivestandard.com/what-is-objectivism/
4. Ron Paul (2009), On Reinstating the Draft, house.gov,
5. ( http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2006/11/no-justification-for-a-military-draft)
6. Groupman, Alan. "Should the United States Reinstate the Draft?" Retired Officer Magazine July 2000: n. pag. Web. 28 Mar. 2016.
7. (http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/317749.html)
8. (https://www.povertyactionlab.org/evaluation/military-conscription-and-crime-argentina)

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Re: The Conscription

Post by Yui on Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:15 pm

Hmmmm... I'm just trying to pose some questions/ideas as to what others might think...

What would be the alternative?


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Re: The Conscription

Post by Guest on Sat Apr 30, 2016 2:31 pm

Yui wrote:It did kind of make me think of the Just War Theory but maybe that's something for another day.

But does one owe their country/should they protect it, if that place is threatened?

Well here you must be thinking of the Social Contract, but this raises the question. Who formed the Social Contract? The Social Contract is when a group of individuals create a contract with themselves to form a government to carry out order and when the government doesn't do this, the government is disbanned. Hence the idea that it's the "People's government." When you begin to infringe upon the right of the individual, the very people who are on both sides of the contract, you are violating the terms of the argeement by puting people in danger via the Right to Life

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Re: The Conscription

Post by Guest on Sat Apr 30, 2016 2:31 pm

Yui wrote:Hmmmm... I'm just trying to pose some questions/ideas as to what others might think...

What would be the alternative?

Volunteer service.

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Re: The Conscription

Post by Yui on Sun May 01, 2016 4:54 am

Would there be enough people volunteering? I guess there might be, if there system was different.

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Re: The Conscription

Post by Fistandantilus on Sun May 01, 2016 5:16 am

I think it is certainly unjust, but Might makes Right way to often =/
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Re: The Conscription

Post by Guest on Mon May 02, 2016 12:58 am

Fistandantilus wrote:I think it is certainly unjust, but Might makes Right way to often =/
If it was anything but the government doing this, it would be Duress.

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Moral

Post by Dunlop on Thu May 05, 2016 9:46 pm

It very good to do things that is very moral

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